3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

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3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by benjediman on Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:09 am

I would want to call out all the engineers/physicists out there. For some time now I wanted to debunk some common myths about adjusting/modifying your cubes. I'd probably have a few mistakes here and there, but I think I still know something that people don't, and people know something that are wrong.

First, to debunk one common myth: THE SCREWS DO NOT DIRECTLY INCREASE THE TENSION. The springs do that. Have you ever wondered why, let's say when you remove one layer of cubies and look through the "skeleton" of your cube, you'd see the centerpieces being a couple of millimeters from the core. And when you look inside a centerpiece, you'd see the screw head being almost one centimeter from the very base of the inside of the centerpiece. So, why is the tension increased when you tighten the screws? It's an indirect consequence. When you tighten the screws, you then compress the springs, giving the springs more tension to both directions - it pushes the screw screw back and pushes the centerpiece down, both having equal magnitudes in force. In this manner, it's also the springs that tighten the cube.

Now that would be a preliminary to what I'm about to evaluate. No diss to anyone, but I don't see why people would want to compress their springs. Okay, I thought of it for some time and this is what I thought of.

Compressed springs = less force

less force = less friction

less friction = smoother turns

Yeah, people like smooth. Now, for the consequence.

Compressed springs = less tension

less tension = loose cube (think about it. I'm right)

loose cube = LOCK UP (no matter what you say, loose cube meaning individual cubies can jiggle MEANS more lock ups)

And so, since the spring became shorter, to compensate for the looseness of the cube, people tighten the screws in (which is sometimes even not enough to remove the lockups)

And I think everyone should agree, tighter screws (not springs) = less corner cutting.

I tried the cube of my friend who compressed his springs. I was surprised how much it locked up on me. My cubing style relies heavily in cutting corners.



I've read in the internet that for the Rubik's Cubes, the best way in making it into a speed cube is to compress the springs by pulling opposite centerpieces and holding that position for some time. So now, you may ask, "BRYAN, WHY WON'T YOU LET ME DO THE NICE MAN'S SUGGESTION AND COMPRESS MY SPRINGS?" OK come on, didn't you read? They're Rubik's Cubes. Unadjustable cubes. Yes, the compressing of the springs will make their cubes lock up more than it used to. But, considering that the rivet is too closed in to the core already, and no matter how much jig-a-loo or whatnot you spray in the cube is still abounding in tension, that's when compressing the springs might not be a bad idea to make the cube looser (and therefore, decrease in friction and therefore smoother).

People have to understand that for every adjustment they make, almost all settings in the cube is adjusted. So we have to think for ourselves, if I loosened up the screws, if I used a core with longer/shorter spokes, if I used stronger/weaker or longer/shorter springs, longer/shorter screws, heavier/lighter plastics, what will change in my cube? Will it cut corners better? will it be smooth? Will it make it better in this manner but make it worse in the other?


Now, let's try coming up with our own "perfect cube".

For those who wants to reply, try coming up with your ideal cube.

Tell in your post what kind of cube qualities you want (loose, tight, cut corners well, smooth, not too smooth), and, knowing what you want, tell us what are the settings and adjustments you need to do.

It's a good exercise. People have been wanting to get the perfect cubes. They keep asking other people for it. People do have their own preferences. The best way to get your ideal cube is to know about cube mechanics and build your own.





i have my own ideal cube but I do not have the resources to build it.

I like a cube that is smooth, but it's not top priority.

I detest cubes that lock up even at the least.

I want my cubes to cut corners very very well (as it is in my fingertricks to take advantage of this; I'm no robot, i.e. Nakajima)

But for now I will withhold my cube settings. People might copy my answers.

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by Syalang on Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:37 pm

i agree on some of you statements... u gain something, u lose something...

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by ynajatrice on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:12 pm

i really love this topic even before it is posted

napag-usapan na namin ni bryan 'to minsan

yung tungkol sa springs at sa smoothness nung cube

inversely proportional sila

hehehe

ang suggestion ko nga eh lagyan ng "bolt" yung loob ng core

para dun na lang ilalagay yung screw

pero parang wala rin ata

hehehe

ang gusto kong cube eh...

*smooth

*can cut corners

*and a bit loose

pero so far eh i'm adjusting to different cube conditions

like tight cubes and the like

pero syempre it's our prerogative to choose which condition we are likely to perform best

hehehe

i'm looking forward for new cube technologies

Smile

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by MetaboringJohnCañares on Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:00 pm

I think the new springs from the new cube4you DIYs are too strong, its making the cubes pop all the time.

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by Syalang on Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:16 pm

i agree john...

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by popoy on Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:20 pm

hmmm??? i've cut the top part of my spring....

shorter spring = less friction = more lockups

but what i've done with it i've pulled each end making it longer...

it made lesser friction because the spring doesn't have much power to push at both ends because of it's original length... but it can still cut corners...

but the problem with this is the possibility of cutting too much of the top part of the spring... you can adjust it to have equal length with the others but it'll shorten up in due time......

well if some points are still unclear ahihihi this thread is open naman diba? hahaha wooohooo

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by benjediman on Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:28 pm

MetaboringJohnCañares wrote:I think the new springs from the new cube4you DIYs are too strong, its making the cubes pop all the time.

I think too strong springs should do the opposite. If you analyze the inside of the centerpiece, the greater the force the spring exerts on the centerpiece, the more the centerpiece is pushed inside. But I still have to research on the effect of greater tension to the other cubies since it's them that are important.

Btw, new cubes in cube4you. Type II A, sold in black and white. But I read in the c4u forums, and I think this was sold some months back and was sold out.

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by TheJoker on Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:46 pm

agree po ako sa mga sinabi ni sir bejediman... pero as i say before... and always said... SPRING po talaga ang mahalaga... then second the LUBE used... properly ba...

lagi ko sinasabi sa kanila... like syalang says... you gain some and you lose some...

mamimili po kayo... CUTTING CORNERS or SMOOTH...???

you can actually do both... with the right tension and adjustment...

sa akin i sacrifice some cutting corners to gain smoothness... that is my style of cubing...

and actually... i have three DIY with a balance in both aspects... and it is not my main cube... display ko lang... dinadala minsan para ipanginggit... hehehehehe... Very Happy:D:D:D:D

ORANGE DIY, YELLOW DIY and WHITE DIY... medyo naperfect ko po sila...

here is my explanation...

if you want a very good CUBE with a very good CUTTING CORNERS... medyo stiff po sya... as in hindi madulas... JOME know about this... even KEN... both their cube is very good in CUTTING CORNERS... pero super maganit... parang may mga muscle ang mga daliri nila dahil medyo mahirap iikot...

then if you want a CUBE with a very good CUTTING CONERS... tapos medyo smooth... then this cube is super POP... grabe... sa mga matitigas ang kamay... konting ikot lang POP agad...

then kung gusto mo naman ng smooth... then you sacrifice CUTTING CORNERS... ganun lang po sya kasimple...

hope maintindihan nyo pinagsasabi ko... heheheheheh... Very Happy:D:D:D:D

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by rflchan on Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:32 pm

but K.Konishi(aka. Master Katsu) said... cut the springs... its makes the cube very smooth

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by crazymrk on Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:02 pm

I think may contradiction po s evaluation mo and to the statements on the 2nd paragraph

you wrote:

“So, why is the tension increased when you tighten the screws? It's an indirect consequence. When you tighten the screws, you then compress the springs, giving the springs more tension to both directions - it pushes the screw screw back and pushes the centerpiece down, both having equal magnitudes in force. In this manner, it's also the springs that tighten the cube.”

“Compressed springs = less force

less force = less friction

less friction = smoother turns

Yeah, people like smooth. Now, for the consequence.

Compressed springs = less tension

less tension = loose cube”

-tama po ung sinabi mo n when you tighten the screws you’ll compress the springs which results/makes your center piece to be push downwards…

So why would you have a less force, less friction, less tension and a loose cube if you have a compressed springs?

On your 4th evaluation your right compress spring will give you less tension, but the one your giving less tension is the spring it self not the center piece nor the whole cube bec. “Tension means if im not mistaken is a stress/physical stress that produces elongation.” So if you give less tension to the spring by compressing it where does the effect of the spring goes? Which by the way the spring works like this if you press it or compress it what would it do is to push back whatever/which one who’s compressing it.. try to do it on your fingers you’ll see what I mean.
And in that case the effect of a compressed spring to the cube is a tighter cube coz when u put your edge pieces on the cube or in the center piece for that matter it stretches the center piece and thus give more compression to the spring, and so the spring will give more force to push back, so the result is a tighter cube, right?

So here’s my evaluation according to your statement (on the 2nd paragraph) and to my statement as well.

Compress springs= greater force (pushing the center piece towards the core)

Greater force=more friction

More friction=hard to maneuver or turn (and we wouldn’t like that, at least most of us)

To sum it all up

Compress springs+great force+more friction=a one hell of a tight cube lol

NOTE:bro benjediman i hope you wont get me wrong by posting this I just notice the contradiction… and who knows baka ganito din ung ibig mo sbihin nagkamali lng ng pg type pansin ko 1am n kc nung ginawa mo yan kya cguro my mali ng konti

Peace out and happy cubing to all

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by TheJoker on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:41 pm

kaya nga one of my reply sa thread... di ko makita eh... about TENSION...

start with loose screw... then pasikip para di mabigla ang tension ng spring...

kasi pag nagsimula ka sa masikip tapos paluwag... yun tension ng spring grabe na... kaya luwag ka ng luwag konti lang nakukuha mong smoothness... kaya nagiging super pop ang cube...

http://pinoyspeedcubers.forumotion.com/noob-s-area-f12/perfect-tension-ng-cube-t4081.htm

eto yun thread about tension and spring...

hope relevant yun bigay ko... heheheheheh... Very Happy:D:D:D:D

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by nEwo on Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:47 pm

OMG I've just read this thread! I hope someone can still help me out here!

Honestly, as a sub30/sub25 cuber, I'm not still sure what my ideal cube is nor my cubing style. But I suffer from several lock ups during my solves thus, giving me more delays. I don't know if it is because of my cube or cubing style (finger tricks, grips, way of execution,etc) or something at iniinda ko n 'to for quite a long time na rin!


On the topic, I GUESS what cube I want is a cube that can cut corners and kind a smooth to turn which according to your post is hard to achieve, right? What I did to my 2 type A C4Y DIYs is I compressed the springs using pliers(I got this idea from some members here). Results?
1. lesser pops (though it popped in 2 competitions I've joined in)
2. lock ups (I'm not sure of this but some cubers said that my cube is nice including jerjero)

However, relying on my understanding in my Engineering Mechanics(just my minor subject in ECE) screws affects the tension exerted by the springs, right? Imagine a spring standing alone in a table. I believe there's no tension present in the spring or if there's any in both ends of the spring, it will just cancel out each other. There's no applied force on the spring, its weight and reaction force of the table on the spring are the only present forces. So what's the point? My point is that the amount of tension that the spring will be exerting MIGHT depend on the tightness of the screws. A compressed spring needs tighter screw or more turns of screw so that the spring will exert tension than the longer spring which according to benjediman people would do because of its looseness.

My evaluation:
compressed spring = greater force (applied by the screw) + lesser tension (exerted by the spring)

where:
greater force(pushes the centerpiece to the core) = lesser pops + more friction + QUITE lesser smoothness

lesser tension = loose cube (according to sir benjediman)
- I don't get it why it is loose cube and the effect of lesser tension to the cube(hehe) except for the fact that the spring won't be pushing away the centerpiece from the core that much thus,
lesser tension = lesser pops

I think the things that need to be consider for a cube are:
1.type of plastic
2.lube
3.screw set
4.type of cube(a,b,c etc,) - i think they differ in structures of some cubies especially the holes in the centerpiece.

I thought if I could understand better this "3x3x3 cube mechanism", maybe I could figure out my ideal cube. In addition, I don't know that much how would I adjust the cutting corner capability of my cube. I's using type A and YugaDiy(type D).

I posted my evaluation on how I understand its mechanism so that if there's something wrong (or all are wrong) in my evaluation, someone can correct me and help me figure out my ideal cube and my still-unknown cubing style. So if you do, please do so!hehehe

Thanks!!!

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by benjediman on Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:34 pm

crazymrk wrote:I think may contradiction po s evaluation mo and to the statements on the 2nd paragraph

you wrote:

“So, why is the tension increased when you tighten the screws? It's an indirect consequence. When you tighten the screws, you then compress the springs, giving the springs more tension to both directions - it pushes the screw screw back and pushes the centerpiece down, both having equal magnitudes in force. In this manner, it's also the springs that tighten the cube.”

“Compressed springs = less force

less force = less friction

less friction = smoother turns

Yeah, people like smooth. Now, for the consequence.

Compressed springs = less tension

less tension = loose cube”

-tama po ung sinabi mo n when you tighten the screws you’ll compress the springs which results/makes your center piece to be push downwards…

So why would you have a less force, less friction, less tension and a loose cube if you have a compressed springs?

On your 4th evaluation your right compress spring will give you less tension, but the one your giving less tension is the spring it self not the center piece nor the whole cube bec. “Tension means if im not mistaken is a stress/physical stress that produces elongation.” So if you give less tension to the spring by compressing it where does the effect of the spring goes? Which by the way the spring works like this if you press it or compress it what would it do is to push back whatever/which one who’s compressing it.. try to do it on your fingers you’ll see what I mean.
And in that case the effect of a compressed spring to the cube is a tighter cube coz when u put your edge pieces on the cube or in the center piece for that matter it stretches the center piece and thus give more compression to the spring, and so the spring will give more force to push back, so the result is a tighter cube, right?

So here’s my evaluation according to your statement (on the 2nd paragraph) and to my statement as well.

Compress springs= greater force (pushing the center piece towards the core)

Greater force=more friction

More friction=hard to maneuver or turn (and we wouldn’t like that, at least most of us)

To sum it all up

Compress springs+great force+more friction=a one hell of a tight cube lol

NOTE:bro benjediman i hope you wont get me wrong by posting this I just notice the contradiction… and who knows baka ganito din ung ibig mo sbihin nagkamali lng ng pg type pansin ko 1am n kc nung ginawa mo yan kya cguro my mali ng konti

Peace out and happy cubing to all


Ah yes. I thought of clearing this statement.

There are two things I can refer to when I say "compressed springs".

One, which was used in the "equations", means the springs were deliberately compressed by force and in time the springs took the form permanently, thus even within the same "tightness" of the screw (how much you screwed in), the "compressed" spring will be relatively shorter, and will provide (in most cases) less force, especially if your screws are loose. One way of doing this (as told to me by some people) is to screw in all the way (to do that, you need to remove the edge pieces and corners), thereby deliberately compressing the springs and waiting for a time until the springs take on that length. After which, the cuber would loosen the screws to the way it was.

On the other hand, the compressed springs I was referring to in the first paragraph is the kind of spring that is not tampered in the first place, but the setting of the screw is simply tighter, therefore compressing the springs. The cuber plays with this cube.

A problem with cube mechanics is that much of the adjustments we do in the cube doesn't provide a linear effect, or in other words doing X will not necessarily adjust Y proportionally. I'ts more of... either parabolic or exponential (to a limit, of course). That's why we don't want to "screw all the way in" or "screw all the way out". We always do "in-between".

Cube mechanics is harder than I thought.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding; same set of words but I used it differently. But my stance remains the same, and no concept is debunked so far.

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by crazymrk on Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:13 am

@benjediman
no need to say sorry man its all good, nicely said. its good to have this kind of conversations/sharing of opinions hope this thread would help a lot of cubers out there... hope to have more topics like this in the future so we could help each other out and to other cubers as well... your good bro keep it coming..

@nEwo
nice method man compress the springs with pliers subukan ko din un lalo n s cube/springs n galing s C4U ang tigas kc hehe

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by meaty21 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:02 pm

i love this thread, now i understand kahit konti sa mechanism ng cube. "you gain some, you lose some". gandang quotation. hahaha. pero mejo di ko maintindihan ung ibang points, mejo di ko maintindihan ung ibang english words. hahaha.

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by nEwo on Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:11 pm

@benjediman
I thought you were referring "compressed spring" directly as the spring that are permanently compressed (using pliers or something).

@crazymrk
I also thought that most of the forum members here knows that idea..hehehe

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by crazymrk on Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:21 pm

@nEwo
baguhan plng kc ako d2 s pca and wla akong friend n ngcu-cube eh hehe kya naisipan ko mkisali d2 s forum to get some ideas and tips thanks for giving me one Smile

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by omarismyname on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:35 am

i think that plastic type is the main factor in smoothness and pops

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

Post by luigiyotoko on Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:33 pm

this is cool

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Re: 3x3x3 Cube Mechanism

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